Riding Tandem

00:00:00 - Speaker A
Welcome to Riding Tandem, a podcast about building businesses leadership and creating positive impact for our communities. I'm your host, Vivian Kvam, and I invite you to ride Tandem Works with me as I have candid conversations with inspiring business owners, leaders and experts who are building on their dreams and creating impact. Get ready to be encouraged and learn practical tactics, help us build successful businesses, become incredible leaders and have positive ripple effects. Let's go. Well, hi, everyone. Welcome to this episode of Writing Tandem Works. Delighted to have an amazing guest today who I have just poured over her website and I love her personality. And this is what we're going to be talking about today, is personality and bringing your personality into your business, which can be intimidating for so many of us. And so this guest today is awesome because this is what she does. She helps bring personality into your business, specifically through copywriting. But my hunch is there's going to be a whole lot more that comes in as well that you're going to be inspired by. So I'm excited to introduce to you Jennifer Curfman. And Jennifer writes slamming copy. I pulled this right off website because I was like, okay. I like the word slamming. Jennifer writes slamming copy for your business so you don't have to. And I'm like, okay, win. Love it. Raise my hand. Already bought in. Because copywriting for me, as many of you know, I've talked about before, is not my thing. My business partner enjoys writing copy, but this is something that intimidates me a ton. So what I love about Jennifer is she helps people show up for the people that they serve by marketing or making their marketing more brand on brand and has just a great way of pulling their personality and their voice in so that their branding and marketing sounds like them. So important. And Jennifer started Untamed Creative because she believes by embracing your true brand voice, you'll attract clients that are more aligned with you. Ta DA. Which we all want because when our clients are more aligned with us, we're aligned with them. They have a great experience, you have a great experience. And we'll all enjoy working together much, much more, which is why we got into business for ourselves in the first place. So Jennifer's the owner of Untamed creative, a marketing strategist for people, and she's helped so many businesses and the owners create unforgettable just authentic copy for them. So I also love she added on here. This is where you start to get the personality right. Jennifer says she looks terrible in stripes, can never seem to find her chapstick, which is terrible. That's hard. And will always say yes to ordering a pizza. And it was at that point that I was like and we will be friends forever. So welcome, Jennifer. Excited to have you here today.

00:02:51 - Speaker B
Thank you. It's very weird hearing you say all those things about me, even though I know that I wrote them and they are true, but it's super fun. I'm very excited to be here. Be weird and see what ends up getting uncovered.

00:03:07 - Speaker A
That's right. We see what's going to get uncovered, for sure. I love that you just have such a great story as I was reading through. We always do a little prep before we jump on a podcast, and I always do a little research and read through that. And I'm delighted by you. I think you sound so awesome. And this is the piece that I love. Your personality shines through and this is what you're all about. And I'm wondering, how did you land there with your business? Because you have not always had a business of your own, is that right? Tell us how you got here. That is correct.

00:03:40 - Speaker B
I worked as a copywriter, like an employee copywriter for a course creator, and I was just solely focused on that business. And it came to a point in my life because I have a little kid and no one talks about this, but kids take up all of your time. So I realized, like, okay, yeah, the time that I'm spending on work isn't really equating with how I want to be a parent. And so I'm somebody who, if I don't just make a decision fast and do it, I'll drag it out forever and then I'll just be grouchy. So I decided, okay, I'm going to be a contractor for this business instead, because that makes the most sense to me. And the work that I do is very translatable to being a contractor. So I was like, hey, what if I was a contractor? And they were like, great, and so that's that. And then like two weeks later I had a website and I was networking and finding clients on my own. And that was nearly two years ago. We're coming up on two years. So ever since then, though, I knew that my immediate goal was to bring people out of their shoulds. And I wanted to add salt to everything because what I mean by that sorry, what I mean by adding salt is like flavor to things that we initially water down when we I don't know if you can relate to this. Most likely you can as soon as you start writing something, an email, a little bio about yourself, like whatever it is.

00:05:40 - Speaker A
BIOS. Oh my gosh, BIOS so hard.

00:05:43 - Speaker B
Yeah, it could be something big, something small. But what happens is we automatically start to stiffen ourselves up and start to let our English teacher from high school get all up in our ear. And so I'm just like, that is so normal. And it takes conscious deconditioning to get rid of that and start writing like yourself. And so that's something that I really try to bring out in people, is what is the point of you having this business and someone else not being you? Right. And some people are resistant to that level of having that much personality in your business. And that's okay, you don't have to. I would never say this is the only way, but it just really was so liberating for me to start my business being like, this is who I am. Enjoy.

00:06:46 - Speaker A
Yes, well, and it is enjoyable. And I think it does get tiring to see, for example, website after website that say the same thing, right? So I'm going to go all the way back to one of my first businesses, which was doing photography and wedding photography. And you get on all of these different websites and you want your personality to come through. Right? And I think with photography especially, you're like, okay, I'm a creative, of course I can let my personality come through. And then you get on the website and I'm plugging in words on the page for this website and what am I saying? I want to capture your memories so they can be remembered forever. And then you get on every other website and they all say the exact same dang thing. Right? And so that's where I think this is such a good topic to have a conversation about is how do I take myself within my field, say what I need to say, I need to tell people about my business and what I do, but still let myself shine through. Are there like a couple of tips that you usually find yourself giving again and again to clients when you're talking about that, where they're like, I'm a lawyer, how do I sound like a lawyer but still let my personality shine through without losing my professionalism? Or I'm highly creative and I'm all over the place. How do I make sure my professionalism comes through even though I'm sharing all of this wacky, crazy, cool personality? What is it that you find yourself telling your clients over and over again?

00:08:18 - Speaker B
Okay, a lot of things came up for me while you were saying that I got my start writing for Bookkeepers, which is a classically white shirt and tie situation type of energy. But the reality is that those people are not always the shirt and tie. Like they are very diverse, they're very fun, they're very interesting, or they can be.

00:08:48 - Speaker A
Right.

00:08:48 - Speaker B
Okay. So that was something I had to figure out how to tangibly explain. It makes sense to me, but I had to figure out how to explain it to them pretty much right away as soon as I got started. So, yes, you want to be professional or perceived as professional, but you also want to say the things that you would normally say in a conversation. So how do you find that balance? I feel like if you are speaking to a client that you would take out to lunch, what would you say if you are writing an email? Like I was saying earlier, if you write an email it's not for some reason, we strip away all of the fun where that's a place you could be absolutely yourself. But anyways, if you are writing any kind of copy that's like for sales purposes, if a client or potential client is going to read this, what would you say if you were out to lunch with them? Like, if you were having a literally real conversation with them, what would you say? You're not going to just keep it down to business. You're not going to use perfect grammar. You're not going to say, we offer comprehensive solutions to no, you're going to be like, listen, your books are a mess. We can help you, and here's exactly how we do it.

00:10:23 - Speaker A
Okay?

00:10:24 - Speaker B
That's all that people want to read is what you would have to say if you were speaking to them. So I love the lunch reference. If you're struggling, just imagine you're at lunch. And then for people who want to make sure that they're really capturing themselves, let's say on a website or on a micro scale in a bio for something, I say have an alter ego. If everyone remembers when Beyonce had her alter ego saucer fierce, I would say if you're it's kind of a bad reference because Beyonce is already like, okay, if I'm me, but I'm me with all of my, you know, questioning myself, imposter syndrome, all of that garbage. So if I have an alter ego and I really have one, her name's Violet. Anyways, so if Violet is doing all of these things with no fear, with no questioning, with no what if I just let her take the driver's seat sometimes? So I'm like, what would Violet do? Okay, so she would send that email. My brand is very I don't know, edgy seems like such a cliche word, but my brand is very this is what I am and suck it if you don't like it. That would mean for me, I use whatever language it is that I think I would say in real life. I will absolutely make pop culture references. I'm going to not hide the fact that I jump around and just make weird metaphors to things. That is what I do. So if I were writing from me, it would be, should I send this? Should I edit that out? Should I get rid of this? But when I write from Violet, I find that I get the best responses. So that's the next level of figuring out who you are, your true self, because that's the authenticity that people want. They want to know who you are if you're not afraid to be that person.

00:12:52 - Speaker A
It comes out over and over again. When we teach our social media classes, this is like the biggest thing we circle back around to is people can tell when you're not being you. And I love how you said about the shoulds because I think so often we go, oh, but people expect me to be this or I should be this in business. And I think I've referenced this before in some other episodes, but when I had some of my early businesses, it was all the way down to, well, I should have a haircut like this so I look older. I should wear clothes like this so that people will take me seriously. Because I'm a young looking person. I always have been. My parents are. I mean, that'll be a blessing someday is what they tell me. But when you're in business, sometimes looking young is not to your advantage. Or so I thought, because I felt I should look mature and like I could handle things and all of that. And then you start thinking about how that pours over into your social media copy and your captions and into your emails. And I for sure was putting on an alter ego, right, who was not me. And you can only carry the weight of that for so long for yourself mentally, I think. And then also people know and they know that you are overcompensating or you're trying too hard, or they can just sense. And I think sometimes people can't put their finger on it, but they can sense that something's off. And so they move on and they couldn't even tell you why they moved on. Right? But they're like, I decided to go with this business. I can't even tell you why because this one looked really put together and I liked what they had to say, but something just fell off. And so I love how you talk about that. The shoulds I love your alter ego of Violet? That sounds like such a great tip to just think through that and then thinking about what would you say? Or what would Violet say if she was having know unhindered with this person? How would I write like that? So when you're putting together just copy for a client, I think one of the biggest questions people have when working with someone like yourself is, well, how can you figure out who I am? What does that look like? I don't even quite know what my voice is. How are you going to figure it out? How do you work together with your clients to figure that out with them and collaborate with them on that?

00:15:13 - Speaker B
There are different ways. It depends on how much I already know about this person. Personally, I feel like a lot of the projects that I've done are for people that I am real business friends with because it's hard not to be. When you connect with somebody, you just start talking and you're like, next thing you know, you're friends. I love that. Yeah. And it's so fun to do projects for those. I feel like the best ones I do are from people that I have built relationships with because it's almost like an extension of my own business at this point. I feel like, oh yeah, I know everything about them, so I'm going for it. But for people who I don't have all of that backstory, we have a pretty extensive form intake form where I just ask pretty much just questions about them. Yes, obviously I need to know things about their offer or whatever it is, but I just really want to know what are they doing when they're not working? I want to know what shows are they binging when they're having a bad day, what things are the ones that are setting them apart from every other graphic designer or whatever. So I want to know what their specific flavor is so that we can bring that in. And some people have different levels of comfort when it comes to showing those things. So I think that's something that's really important to be clear on. If you are hiring a copywriter to be you, you need to communicate with them how much you're willing to share and what the voice is that you're going for because there are endless examples out there that you can show. So that's another thing. I always want to make sure people are saying, I like this brand because XYZ, I like this website, I like the way that they have their services because of this reason. I like the way this person uses this type of language structure or whatever. So I love examples, I love explanations, I love personality traits. And then something that you said earlier about people having the alter ego in the opposite direction of their truth, I've definitely seen that happen too, because I think that a lot of people think, oh, I want my brand to have personality. And I think that sometimes that can feel like you have to be funny when you're not actually like that's not natural. It doesn't have to be funny. It could be like super energetic or whatever. So I have definitely seen that go in the opposite direction because if a brand is fun or seems fun, people will want to buy from it. But like you said, there's an intuition that happens where people just know something is not right, something is not aligned or something is not true. And so, yeah, if you're fun, be fun. If you're fun at brunch, be fun. If you're more factual, if you're more like straight up and blunt, then that's what you should be. Personality doesn't mean you're a joy to be around all the time. Maybe you're just more to the point, that's great, then that's what your brand should be.

00:19:06 - Speaker A
It makes me think of if you go, well, I'm supposed to be funny, so I'm going to start telling these jokes, they're going to fall flat because that's just not who you are. Right? And that is definitely something that I have learned. And continuing to learn is doing the work of figuring out, well, who am I and who am I at this stage? Because I feel like that has sometimes certain personality. Pieces come out more as I'm in just different seasons of life and going, okay, I'm just going to lean into that right now. And then maybe I'm feeling a little more serious during the season of life, and that's okay. And I have felt in the past like, okay, I have a brand. I have to stay super duper consistent. I can never change. And that's just not how humans operate, right? Like we as humans, we change or we morph or we have moods that change with the seasons. And I have found myself in this as I've been working harder on making sure that I have an email that goes out every other week. Sometimes I feel light and fun and I'm just dropping all these just I don't know, they're probably more dad jokes than anything. I am not super funny, okay? So I'm just going to put that out there. But there are times where I feel more humorous and so I let that sprinkle in. And then there are other times where I feel like pretty serious and I'm really to the point and factual and I've been learning to get more comfortable with, okay, if that's the space I'm in right now, then I'm going to be true to myself. I'm going to write the email that way. And next week when I write the email, if it feels completely different, it's okay. And as I look back over the emails, I see common threads in the moment. I feel like I'm bouncing all over the place, but as I look back through I go, no, actually there is this common thread I think that is my personality. My personality is not one dimensional and I love that. About everything with your content is I think you help bring out all the different dimensions of people and you can help them say in this moment, it's okay to be more serious, or in this moment let's lean into the fact that you really like facts about movies and let's sprinkle it in here. So I'm just curious, what are your thoughts with that? People have so many different dimensions and as they're writing it's almost like your moods can switch and change or they seem like they need to change for different contexts. Like maybe my email feels a little different than my website feels. How do you help people navigate through those types of questions?

00:21:37 - Speaker B
Yeah, when you are a personal brand or you're the face of the brand, I think that being holding yourself to an expectation of being the same tone and cadence all the time is unrealistic. That's not normal. That's not a real person. Just ask my husband. I'll probably be crying later. Who knows? And it's totally okay to have one aspect of your business be very like, these are the facts. You're not going to sell services. Like, for example, if you're selling a service on a sales page, perfect example. There is an obvious flow of information and how it's delivered because it's a conversation and so is pretty much anything that you're going to be writing. So it starts with something to grab attention usually. Well, for me, it's usually something funny that it's unexpected, but it can also be something super impactful, like a really good statistic or a really good fact that's like a transformation. Okay, so that's your hello. Hi. Welcome. Then there's going to be a little bit of conversation, like getting to know each other, that's your pain points and things like that. And then when you move down the page, it's like people are going to want to get down to brass tax. They're going to need to know what is included in this. So there's not always the exact same energy in every piece that you're going to write. I think you can see, again, pull up five sales pages and just see everyone has a very similar flow that they follow and you can use. I think that the best place to practice your alter ego is in your weekly emails or however often is in your emails to your list. I think that's the best place because they've specifically said, yes, please email me. I want to know you in blogs if you're a blogger. I think that's an amazing place to give really solid information and then add your own flair if you want. But I think if you want to be more straightforward and like, here's the info you were looking for. Great. That's a great place to do it. I think that if you are writing a website, that is the place to really show what people are getting involved with if they want to work with you. So acting like you are something that you're not on your website is, I think, the biggest risk because if someone wants to work with you and then you end up as not what they expected, that was a waste of time.

00:24:57 - Speaker A
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that is such great advice to think about those different pieces and being able to let your personality shine through. But I love how you talk about having a conversation on your sales page specifically trying to explain to people sometimes that flow is so important so that they understand, like, hey, when somebody comes to your sales page, if you're just shouting at them, look at me, look at me, look at like, that's not a conversation. That's a barker on the corner. Right. And most of us avoid those folks. I was just at the Iowa State Fair. So this is like perfect example. And I walk through some buildings my husband had a booth there. I walk through some buildings and they have the headsets on and they're literally just kind of barking at you. This feature and that feature and to be fair, it does attract some people, but they have to really specifically know already I want a squeegee for my window that does this. And then they're pretty attracted, right? But most of us don't know that I'm looking for this magical squeegee. By the way, the squeegee was pretty magical. I did stand there for a while and watched that one, but I felt like the booze that were the most successful were the ones who were having conversation. So easy to do when you're in real life. So I love your advice of just take that experience. When somebody walks into your store, do you start barking at them? All of your features and what's going on? And the sale over here? No, you get to know them. Hi, what's going on? What's going on in your world? What are you looking for today? Is there a problem you're trying to solve? Why I have a blouse for you that could do that. That conversation piece, I think is so huge. So I appreciate that piece of advice for people. I hope people are taking notes on that, for sure. And then using the emails for the personality. Love that, because you're exactly right. They've basically said, here's my email, which is super valuable to give. Let's be friends. So I love that of like, yes, then let's be friends there and have a little more casualness or back and forth and invite people to have that conversation through emails I think is super fun. I love when people respond back and that tells you like, great, okay, now we had this really great connection, right? Which is super duper fun. Okay. I need to know a little bit more, though, about copy and social media. What are your thoughts with writing those captions? The shelf life is so short. It's there and gone. It can feel super intimidating for people. I think of all the places where people go, I'm going to put on an alter ego. It's social media because there are so many. I'm just going to kind of air quote this. Expectations on social media, even with our personal pages, where we are really curating our lives and now we're curating our businesses and it feels like all eyes on us. What are your thoughts? How do you guide people through that aspect of letting themselves shine through and not getting stuck in all the hype? Is this where Violet comes in?

00:28:00 - Speaker B
Like, if you look at my Instagram activity, it's a ghost town. And that's because I don't feel comfortable spending time creating especially static stuff for Instagram. It does not connect with me. But I have an audience on Instagram that I love them and I forget about them because I don't go on that very often. So what I do is stories because that's the best place for me to just be like, hello, here's what I'm doing. What are you all doing today? Or like, what's up? So it feels very casual and just natural to me to go on stories, and then I almost always get some kind of message or some kind of response or whatever from doing that. Because to me the energy of stories is so much more attractive.

00:28:59 - Speaker A
Stories in the conversation, right? It's like this conversation piece happening again 100% with you. There the static posts though, they're necessary to keep an audience or find an audience or get them there at times. I also really resonate with the stories and the reels for that conversation feel. And I love that you said that you feel uncomfortable. That is a big thing. So note for everyone. Again, if you haven't written this one down before, we have said it over and over. When we teach on social media, if it doesn't fit you, it doesn't matter if it's the trend or the thing that you are supposed to be doing it's that should again, right? Because if it's not authentic, we're all going to know. So or hire someone who can help you out with that. It is AOK to do that.

00:29:49 - Speaker B
Yeah, absolutely. I think there's so much value. Like I said, I have a great Instagram audience because I used to be active on it and then other stuff just became more interesting to me. But I would never have the audience I have if I didn't do what I did at the beginning. And there's so much beauty in giving somebody else control over the stuff you hate. So if social media is something you don't want to do, great. Maybe you just empower someone else to do that for you. I think that Instagram and I'm saying Instagram specifically, that's the only thing I do. I'm too tired to do the other things. So I think that that has really helped me build relationships with people who aren't on my email list. Because I started transitioning into I'm just emailing often. That is what makes sense for me. That's what like. So if someone's not on my email list, that is totally fine. But I am very sporadically active on Instagram because I'm spending energy on the list. So if a lot of people who are what I've noticed a lot of people who are feeling about social and they want to have social media be just a nice to have moving into the email list and really putting energy into that is amazing. It's so good because again, it's so much more intimate because people are saying yes, I want to be here. And the duality of yes, it's more valuable and more intimate is also I am so much more vulnerable here because I am saying whatever I'm saying to someone's inbox I'm taking up their time and then they might unsubscribe, oh my God, what do I do? And then I'm twelve and I'm in gym class again and I am a terrible PE participant and I fell on my face. And so when you open up, like I use ConvertKit so when you open up ConvertKit and you say they're. Very nice about saying, hey, this is how many unsubscribes you have right now. So I totally understand when people have resistance to emailing their list. I think that that has a lot to do with it because once you hit send, it's done, you can't undo it. So I get it and I also say, okay, what is the risk of not nurturing these people who have willingly agreed to hear from you? In my experience, the risk is money. Like you're losing out on making sales and really good connections and referrals too. My business is hugely based on referral and by accident. But that's just how because I'm having conversations, because I'm connecting with people, that's just how it happened, which allows me to be pretty ghost like on Instagram.

00:33:25 - Speaker A
Yeah. And I love that you are vulnerable about this and bring things up because there's so much misconception that you have to be all things for all people on all platforms. And that just is not true. We cannot be all of those things. And the brands who are, just as a note for people behind the scenes, look, they either burn out or they hire teams and they have teams of people. And so you can think, oh, this person is just able to be on all these things. No, they are not the wizard of Oz behind the curtain is they have hired people. And so they've either hired people to clean their house, to nanny for their kids, or they have hired people to do their social media or they have hired people to run the website or to do the videos or to do their copywriting. They have some team and some help behind them, either large or small. And so that's how those brands do that for us. Even ourselves. We help businesses with social media and we don't do our own social media. One of our team members does our social media for us. And so I just think it's important to point that out because it's so easy to think, oh, I'm supposed to be all these things to all the people and we're not. We are not all of the things. And that is okay. And if you're not in a position or you don't want to hire people, do it's okay to lean into your thing. And so I love that you've just brought that up. You have leaned into your thing. It's the email for you. You used a tool like Instagram to help build it up and it's okay to let some of those things go or to have a season where you're going to let it go and then maybe you're going to come back again. So I think that's important to point out to people along with I'd love for you to chat a little bit about you had discussed this a bit beforehand. You really leaned into just coaches and workshops and courses as you were getting your business started and what was that like for you? I know. I loved how you just commented. I think your comment basically was you weren't sure if you're always making the right decision, but you just kind of leapt into them and went, I'm going to pay for this. I'm going to learn what I learn. Talk to me about that. As you were getting your own business started, how did you lean into those sources? Just thinking about how we can't be all things right. We have to have a good learnings, coaching mentors around us.

00:35:53 - Speaker B
Yes. I talk about this a lot, actually, how in my first year especially, I was just like, I want to know everything, because not necessarily do everything. I just wanted to know what was working for other people. And sometimes that means you have to buy their course or you have to, whatever, hire them for a period of time. So I am a big fan of testing. I think it's Seth Godin, he's like, very famously, always be testing. Okay. So I agree. I think that testing things out and just seeing does this feel good?

00:36:35 - Speaker A
Yes.

00:36:35 - Speaker B
No? Great. We're going to make a decision. So I wanted to know what was working for a lot of people because I was very sheltered as an employee. I only knew what was going on in that business. I didn't know anything about running my own. And I don't know if some of those things were good purchase or not, but I think that the decision that you make is the right one. So I just did something, and here we are. Also, some of those group like, I did some group coaching purchases, and most of the time those were because I wanted to be in the room with the people who were also in the room. So I just wanted to be like a fly on the wall.

00:37:28 - Speaker A
Yes.

00:37:28 - Speaker B
I wanted to know what was in the course too, I guess. But I also just wanted to be in those groups for the people that were in the groups. And some of them there's one in particular that I still have so many close friends that came out of that group, and it's cool. Yes, I had to make a financial investment, but I think that it has absolutely paid off in the long run because like I was saying earlier, I have a largely referral based business. So people that I met in that group, whether they hired me or they referred somebody to hire me or whatever, that has paid off. That has given me a really good return on whatever I paid to be in the group in the first place. And again, I think it comes down to I was just genuinely just trying to make friends with these people because I thought they were cool. It wasn't something that I was like, OOH, this person has a really big audience and I want to be friends with them because if I'm on their podcast or something, then I don't care. I don't care about that. I care about having friends because it's lonely out here, right? Okay. So having the friends is always going to pay off, whether it pays off emotionally or financially, whatever. But I think it's always a benefit. So, yes, I made a lot of investments and I will probably continue to do so because it's so fun for me. I don't know if this is the right setting for this, but I am an enneagram newbie, so anyway, I'm just like getting into that whole thing. But I am a six, which apparently means that I like to just buy.

00:39:23 - Speaker A
Stuff to see if it works, which great.

00:39:26 - Speaker B
I mean, I have a track record to prove it.

00:39:29 - Speaker A
You're like everyone's dream, right? You're like, yeah, I'll just try it. Yeah, I'll take one.

00:39:36 - Speaker B
Yeah, I'm everyone's dream and client. My husband is like, what are you doing? I don't know. We're figuring it out.

00:39:47 - Speaker A
It is so important to remember that piece of it is hard sometimes to invest in yourself.

00:39:53 - Speaker B
It is.

00:39:54 - Speaker A
Especially when you're getting a business started, because for many of us, there isn't a lot of if any real fluid cash available right. For investing in yourself. And yet, to your point, that is where I have also found the biggest wins and rewards have been where I either learn something that helps propel profits forward in ways I never imagined or it gives me the encouragement I needed or it gives me the focus I needed for that time or the accountability. And then the friends piece, like you said, I think that's huge.

00:40:29 - Speaker B
And we were talking about before we.

00:40:30 - Speaker A
Hopped on here that we actually got connected because I was in a group, an online group, and met Kristen Parker and she came on the podcast and then she was like, well, you really need to talk to Jennifer. And I was like, absolutely. And so these connections just start happening and I have a few online friends that I've never met and we Marco Polo and I know I can lean into them and they are quality people, quality friends on a personal level and a professional level. So I'm with you. I'm right with you there of the investments have always been worth it. I haven't ever had one where I was like, that was a total dog. I got nothing out of it, even if it wasn't something I expected to get out of it. Right. I don't always learn something mind blowing, but I usually meet somebody or I see something in a different way and that is solid gold. Otherwise, you're right. We're just on an island.

00:41:25 - Speaker B
Yeah, it's super lonely. Like, my dog doesn't really contribute that much to this. She's pretty lazy. And I feel like the online business part of this whole puzzle is such a tiny part of it, but you don't have a business if you don't have anybody buying your stuff and so how are you going to sell it? It's so fun to see how relationships have. Like I'm doing like a spread finger. Yeah, like how they've spider webbed into all these other things. And I haven't met most of these people in real life either, but I feel like I have. I feel like I know them. I feel like they were at my wedding or something. It's just so very weird and awesome and I just cannot wait to see what more comes in the future.

00:42:23 - Speaker A
I'm curious, as we're just talking about all of this, what do you think are some of the biggest myths or misconceptions about what you do, your business, or about voice and brand and copywriting? What are some of the things that you find yourself often saying? Oh, but let me actually tell you how it is.

00:42:42 - Speaker B
Well, firstly, that Copywriter is not a lawyer and cannot trademark your brand name or something. That's definitely something I've heard a couple of times and I'm like, no, not what that is. And secondly, that again, so many well, I shouldn't say that because would you say it? Yeah, so it's just a lot of the shoulds and just clearing all of those. There are so many people who are extraordinary that are hiding it for whatever reason and that is really the thing that has been so that has been so fun for me to uncover. I was asked to be part of a bundle or a summit or something recently. It was a summit and I had to come up with a presentation for it and I didn't really have anything prepared, so it was a random idea that came to me, but I ended up calling it, oh, God, I'm Going to mess It up. It was how to Write Irresistible emails while being 137% yourself. And that to me, just made so much sense because why would we hide ourselves? Like, you don't even like everyone. Why do you care if everyone likes you?

00:44:16 - Speaker A
And again, you might have to say that one again.

00:44:24 - Speaker B
Listen up, turn it up. You don't like everyone, so why do you care if everyone likes you? And I know why. It's because it's painful when it's easy to take things personally if someone unsubscribes, or if someone honks at you on the road, or if someone comments on your stuff and says, I disagree. Well, yeah, it's easy to take that personally and it takes real conscious work to let it go and decondition yourself from feeling like you are attached to everyone's opinion of you. And that's one of the things I've invested in, is nervous system healing and just I had a coach who was helping me just work through all of these things, especially feedback, if you work in a service based industry where you're doing something that someone is going to have to approve.

00:45:25 - Speaker A
Right? Yeah.

00:45:26 - Speaker B
I mean, feedback is terrifying if you're not mentally prepared for it. And if you can't coach yourself out of that tizzy, because that's what it is. Opening the email of like, okay, I've reviewed everything, and I have my notes, and you have to take a deep breath and open it and be like, I am not the my work. Let's do know. I saw a Ted Talk the other day about not taking things personally, which instantly made sense to me. Honestly, the first 17 minutes of the Ted Talk, I was like, this is fine. But then at the end, he had a $20 bill, and he was like, who wants this $20 bill? Everybody raised their hand. He crumpled it up. Who wants it still? Yes, everybody.

00:46:19 - Speaker A
He chewed it disgusting.

00:46:22 - Speaker B
He chewed on it for a few seconds. He's like, okay, who still wants this? I know that's all I could think about was, please don't get strep throat. Please, right? And he's like, who still wants this? A lot of people still had their hand up. He stomped on it on the ground. Who still wants this? And he pointed to an audience member and said, Why do you still want this $20 bill? And he said, Because it's still good. It's still $20.

00:46:45 - Speaker A
And he was like, exactly.

00:46:48 - Speaker B
He's like, People can destroy you, but verbally, or they can troll you on Instagram or whatever it is. They can have their opinions about you, but your value doesn't change. And I think that is something that we need to tell ourselves every day if we're putting ourselves out there and trying to build our business. So I love that. I loved how we put that.

00:47:21 - Speaker A
I love that, too, and just remembering that value, and I think it just brings everything we've been talking about full circle of letting yourself shine through your brand, and being yourself is so valuable. The value is there, and it might not be everybody's brand, right? And that's okay. You don't have to be there and please everyone or have every client. And I try to remind people, too, you couldn't fulfill every client anyway. You have a limit. You don't need everyone. Not everyone needs your thing. And thank the good Lord for that, because you would never have any fun. You would never sleep. You would never eat, because you just wouldn't be able to fulfill everything. And so I feel like it's designed that way, right? It is designed that way so that we don't become completely overwhelmed. I remember driving around, and my ex husband owned a company with him, and I remember him saying as we drive, he's like, they need our thing. They need our thing. They need our thing. And I remember thinking, they probably don't all need our thing, but there's a couple out there who do. And you want your personality to shine through so that they can find you and you can make that connection, and you can have those great relationships and have amazing clients. And that's what I love about what you do. There's a couple of things that I want to make sure we touch on that you had brought up before we hopped on here. And one of those is one of your favorite piece of advice. Lessons learned you had shared was getting in front of other people's audiences and how that has been incredibly valuable for you. Talk to me a bit about that. What do you mean by that? And what have you found has worked well for you that others might take away from this conversation as well?

00:49:09 - Speaker B
Yes, that was something that someone told me, like one of my mentors told me when I started and I was like, well, that sounds terrifying. And I was right. It is. But for me, yes, being on other people's shows and sometimes people do like an email list takeover or an Instagram takeover or whatever, like you could do those types of things. For me, it's really just been building those relationships that are honestly a relationship that I would have either way if I had this business or not. So for me, it's just been that and then it's been other people talking about me when I'm not around, pretty much. That has been so fun to witness. I get random messages all the time from people who are like, hey, I'm friends with XYZ Person. And they told me that to reach out to you because I need whatever. And so it's just amazing. It's so much fun. That has been by far the best marketing strategy is just making friends.

00:50:24 - Speaker A
Yeah, I love it. I hope you guys all heard that favorite marketing strategy is making friends. It really does come back down to that relationship and that conversation. And we make friends when people get to know who we are, right. And we get to know who they are. So we have to be vulnerable to each other. And I love that you brought that up as a marketing I'm going to air quote this tactic of like, you know, a great marketing tactic, my friends, is to be human and to make connections with people and to be awesome. And then they want to talk about you, and that translates across the board, either they want to forward your email or they want to share your blog or they shoot your website over in a text message or they share your social post. Right? And that's I think the beauty of how all of this comes together is it's about showing up, being human, letting your personality shine through, and then you can do it in all these different avenues, all these different channels, pick the flavor that works for you, that you like, and then just lean into it. And that is huge. So I love how you simplified that and then I complicated it with a bunch of words there because that's what I do. That's part of my personality.

00:51:37 - Speaker B
If you want to keep it simple and remember something simple. My daughter just started kindergarten and I was like, hey, have you made any friends yet? This is on day two. And she was like, yeah, I have. And I was like, oh, amazing.

00:51:48 - Speaker A
Is it easy for you?

00:51:49 - Speaker B
And she was like, yeah, you just walk up to someone and say, do you want to be friends? And then you're friends. And I was like, oh, sorry, didn't know. And that's how it is for us too. We just complicate it.

00:52:04 - Speaker A
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so to keep things simple and not overcomplicate them, if people want to connect with you, Jennifer, and they'd like to be friends with you or see if they want to be friends with you, we won't put the pressure on. They can feel it out first. You can feel it out first. What's the best ways to do that? And I know we were hopped on before. We're talking about your podcast, which is launching soon. Correct. Tell us how we can get connected with you, what are the best ways and what are some of the fun things coming up that we should be watching for?

00:52:35 - Speaker B
Okay, I like fun things. Okay. So I have a website untamedcreative.com. That's a good place to just creep and see what this is all about. And then if you are somebody who is trying to be on a podcast yeah, I decided again on a whim that that's something that I've been thinking about. And I was like, I'm just going.

00:53:02 - Speaker A
To go for it.

00:53:03 - Speaker B
So we are launching. Oh gosh, september 4 is going to be the first season. So I'm already recording right now. But if you want to be on season two, I have a form. I can give you the link for it, but I have an application form and that is the Unhinged Biz podcast where basically we talk about what shouldn't be working, what makes no sense, but is definitely part of like a cornerstone of your business. And what did everyone say not to do that? You did anyway, so that is a topic that I'm very passionate about. So that's the podcast and then what else? Oh, and then get on my email list.

00:53:44 - Speaker A
And can they do that just by going to your website or is there a better way into your email list?

00:53:50 - Speaker B
So I do have a free thing. You can either subscribe to the podcast, which is going to put you on the email list too, or you can get my voice of customer data course, which is just it's an email course. And that was like my pillar content when I got started was how can we take the language of our ideal audience and use that to write copy that makes them say, hell yeah, let's go. So it's just learning all about that and giving you some resources to organize it, collect it, that kind of thing. So you can get that that'll put you on the list. Or you can just email me and say, hey, put me on the list and I will.

00:54:33 - Speaker A
I love it. Awesome. Hey, let's be friends. Yeah, I like it. Well, the course sounds awesome. I think that's something definitely for people to check out for myself to check out as well. I also love courses, mini courses, opportunities to learn things like we talked about earlier. So I'm going to really encourage people to check that out, especially if you're kind of struggling with how do I let my brand shine through, or rather let my personality shine through my brand? I think that's huge and applies to everyone out there and I love that. We start off podcast with some first client bookkeepers. This is for everyone. If you have a brand and you are a human, you have a personality that needs to shine through in your brand in some form or another. So this applies for everyone. So I love that. I love that you can help people do that. And so I'm just going to encourage folks out there listening if you're like. This sounds amazing, but I don't want to do it. Then I think you really need to connect with Jennifer because she's going to help you figure it out. And I love that there are people that we can lean into for that. We don't have to be all things to all people, which is just huge. Real quick, I always do some rapid fire questions at the end here because it's fun. We get to know people a little bit. I'm going to pop one in here because you had shared beforehand that you have kind of a tech stack that you like to like your tools that you like to use. What are some of your top tools that you like to use within your business?

00:56:05 - Speaker B
Okay, so I like to keep things pretty simple, but I have ConvertKit. That's my email platform. I have basically like the brain of everything I ever thought is in Notion. If you haven't used Notion before, block off your weekend. And I also have cast magic for transcribing podcast stuff and generating some extracurricular copy from that and oh my gosh.

00:56:38 - Speaker A
What else do I use?

00:56:38 - Speaker B
Everything else is flying out of my brain. I feel like those are my main.

00:56:43 - Speaker A
I think you mentioned tidy cow. Is it Cow?

00:56:48 - Speaker B
Yeah.

00:56:48 - Speaker A
Is that part of cast magic or that's different.

00:56:51 - Speaker B
It's different. So it took the place of Calendly for me because I was like, why am I paying all of these annual fees for something when I could just buy this one thing? It's like a lifetime payment and then you're just done. So I'm a huge fan of things that I can just pay for once.

00:57:10 - Speaker A
Oh, Thrivecart.

00:57:10 - Speaker B
That's another one. I use Thrive Cart for basically everything that I sell because I just paid for it one time and it does.

00:57:18 - Speaker A
A great job that's awesome. I do like to look for those as well. Everything out there is pretty subscription based these days, so it is unusual to find those. But I remember the days I'm going to date myself here where you literally bought a CD with whatever it was you went and you put it into your computer and then that was how you used Adobe products and things like that.

00:57:41 - Speaker B
I was just about to say illustrator and Photoshop were for me in college were on a disk. And then I tried to use them several years later and I called Adobe like, these aren't working. And they laughed at me.

00:57:55 - Speaker A
That's awesome. What do you think is the biggest misconception about owning a business?

00:58:02 - Speaker B
Well, I have two. Okay. The first one is that it will make you so much money so fast and that it'll be easy and glorious the whole time.

00:58:13 - Speaker A
Lie.

00:58:14 - Speaker B
The second one is that you have to deliver value. I'm doing the biggest possible air quotes. You have to deliver value all the time. I think that value is when you are yourself in front of your audience. So I don't think you always need to give actionable steps and you don't have to solve everyone's problems every single time you communicate with them. So just be yourself and get paid.

00:58:44 - Speaker A
Love it. Be yourself and get paid. Tip of the day, make friends. Be yourself, get paid. I like it. What do you think is an important piece of advice you have been given and you have actually applied in your business?

00:58:59 - Speaker B
Yeah. Well, okay, so obviously we already talked about getting in front of other people's people. And that has just been so beautiful for me. But on something we didn't even talk about yet. But this is something that I was taught and then have never forgot, is adding flavor, your own flavor to every single part of a customer journey is so beneficial. I'm talking the unsubscribe link on your email, like the thank you page after they buy something, the email of, hey, thanks for scheduling a call. Every single little piece of it can be fun or can be you, whatever that means for you. And do not sleep on those opportunities.

00:59:52 - Speaker A
I like those and they definitely stand out to me. I always notice when they're different. And to your point, it doesn't have to be fun. It doesn't have to be quirky. It can be. But they definitely stand out to me as well. Is there something you would tell your 18 year old self, knowing what you know about life now, about life, how much time?

01:00:13 - Speaker B
We don't have enough time. But I think it would be the same thing I tell my clients who are trying to find themselves. It's very similar to being 18, I think. Trust yourself and ignore everyone else is what I would tell 18 me. Yeah.

01:00:36 - Speaker A
Jennifer, do you have a favorite kickback and relax beverage?

01:00:40 - Speaker B
How hard of a day has it been you're?

01:00:45 - Speaker A
Like, my eyeballs are watering from all the coffee I've been reading. There'll be a hundred free.

01:01:00 - Speaker B
Like I'm a Texas girl, so I'm a Dr. Pepper drinker, but I just love soda and candy. I don't care if that makes me twelve years old. I love candy. So yeah, I would say very cold Dr. Pepper or maybe a been if it's been a day.

01:01:24 - Speaker A
Yeah. That's awesome. Do you have right now any do you have like a song or a book or maybe it's a podcast? What's inspiring you right now that you just have to tell everybody about?

01:01:39 - Speaker B
I have yes. Book. I know this is not unique at all, but I love oh, I was going to say I love Atomic Habits. That book is something that I revisit constantly. I've made a habit of it, if you will. Right. It's so there. It's very meta. So I absolutely love revisiting that book when I'm just feeling like but recently Laura Belgrey came out with her book, Tough Titties. It is just a delightful read. You can binge it in a day, but it is so refreshing. And that is like the epitome of just be yourself. I think her tagline is get paid to be yourself or something like that. And I hope for everyone that that's where we can go. Okay, so those are for books.

01:02:40 - Speaker A
Check it out. No? Great. Do you have something that people often get wrong about you? You really put a lot of personality out there. So I'm curious about this one. I'm like, man, maybe they just get everything right because you share who you are so well.

01:02:57 - Speaker B
Yeah, the only thing I can think of this used to happen a lot more when I worked in real life in person. But I think this is true for probably anyone. A lot of people think that I'm very calm and cool and collected because I usually default to humor. And that is absolutely not true. I have so much anxiety. I'm just a person who thinks a lot. And so yeah, so I think that me being chill is the biggest misconception because I'm all over the place. But in a cute way.

01:03:37 - Speaker A
Yeah. No, I get it. There are definitely times in my own head where I'm like, yeah, I don't feel calm, but I'm glad you think I'm calm. This is good. We look regulated. This is good. Now if I just get the hamsters in my head to slow down a little bit, it'd be great. What excites you about the future?

01:03:54 - Speaker B
Oh, we're all going to make so much money. It's going to be so fun. I think that there's an endless amount of money available to us, but we have to believe. I just think we have to believe in ourselves, that we deserve it and that it is possible. Let's check in a year from now. But my goal for myself for a year from. Now. August was the intention. I want to double my husband's income in my own business. So I believe that it's going to happen. I don't have all the answers yet, but I just know that that's meant for me for some reason. So that's why I'm excited for the future. But I also just truly think that everybody gets to have whatever they want. They just have to keep playing. I think I've said this on my own podcast before, but if you are the main character of a video game, you're already pre coded to win the game. You just have to keep respawning and play. Like, try again. And if you just keep playing, you're going to win. You just can't stop playing.

01:05:18 - Speaker A
Right. Don't stop playing.

01:05:20 - Speaker B
Yeah.

01:05:20 - Speaker A
Otherwise you're stuck there on level seven forever. You got to get back in there.

01:05:26 - Speaker B
Yeah. Do not put the controller down like you can do it.

01:05:30 - Speaker A
I love that. That's a good metaphor. I like your metaphors. These are good. Last one here. What do you feel business owners can do that makes the world a better place?

01:05:42 - Speaker B
I think they can. Okay. I think that if we all make the kind of money that we're trying to make, that we can then help other people in ways that we want to help them. If I make more money, I can hire a social media manager, which helps that person do whatever they're trying to do. If I make more money, I can create more stuff. Like, I can do more things and benefit more people. I think that everybody achieving their I mean, all goals, I suppose, but I'm thinking specifically financial goals, then those things will just continue to help the rest of society. So go out there and get paid to be yourself, right?

01:06:34 - Speaker A
I love it. I love it, and it's so true. It's one of the things I love. And to encourage part of the whole point of having this podcast is to encourage business owners or people thinking about being a business owner right. Maybe they're not there yet. Is that you can do this. It is possible even when you think it's impossible. And whatever it is for you, if it's a lifestyle that you're looking for, if it's a dollar amount you're looking for, if it's having an impact that you're looking for, maybe it's all of those things. It is possible, but it's hard to do alone. And I think that is one of the most important things. And I love how you talk about then you can go and have impact on others because it's hard to do it alone. So when we can lift each other up, I just think that's magical and beautiful, and I love it. And the whole purpose of this podcast is that's why it's called riding Tandem Works. You're not riding the bike alone, right? You're doing it together. And when you ride Tandem Works on a Tandem Works bike, each person has a little different role. You're not doing the exact same thing, but when you're doing that together, you're going further faster than you can on a regular bike, which I think is really cool when you think about it. I need to get on a Tandem Works bike. I have not convinced my business partner Michaela, she's been on a Tandem Works bike. She says it's difficult to get the hang of it at first, but then once you do, you can go further faster. And I think that's just such a great metaphor for what it is that we are all doing with our businesses, is it can be awkward at first, like, to figure it out, but then once you do and you bring those people on board with you, you can go further faster together, which is really awesome. So I appreciate you, Jennifer, hopping on here and that we get to meet this know, even virtually and through a podcast. And I just really love what you're doing for people and how you're helping their personalities shine through their businesses, because why else are we doing this, right? It's so that we can shape the lives that we want. And I love that you're helping people do that. So thank you for doing that for so many out there. And I was going to say it again for those of you listening, if this has resonated with you, I really want you to reach out to Jennifer and get on her email list. Go download or not download the course. Get on the email course. That's such a cool way to do it. And get to know each other, be humans together. I think that's going to be really awesome for you. So thank you so much, Jennifer, for being on.

01:09:03 - Speaker B
Thank you. This was so fun and yeah. Hey, does anyone want to be friends?

01:09:10 - Speaker A
Yes. Sign me up. I'm getting on the newsletter. All right. Thank you. Bye.